- This topic has 9 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 6 months ago by Throne Warden GEM.
July 4, 2015 at 1:38 am #2912Miss LindaGuest
We don’t have anything quite like it. I have trouble wrapping my brain around it.
For those who haven’t read that far, Turalay is a ritual in the Green Hollows. If you declare Turalay for another person, you tie your life together with that person’s, as a guarantee of their conduct. If they break a law, you both receive the same punishment. The bond cannot be revoked and is lifelong. And it is sealed in blood, with a bloody handprint on an ancient tree.
Spoiler section! Don’t read it if you don’t want to know!
Nia invoked Turalay in order to get Kalmar out of the dungeon. She believed it was the only way for the people of the Green Hollows to accept him. They still didn’t welcome him, but it was enough that they were willing to allow him to live among them, even though he looked like a Fang. Even Janner was unsure that Kal was trustworthy and was fearful about what his mother has promised. And he should have been. Nia almost died because of Turalay, but even then she said “I do not regret it.”
Ok, enough spoilers, on to other thoughts.
Turalay confuses me. I guess in some ways I have trouble with it because it is such a strong and total commitment. I can grasp the concept in the abstract, but our society has nothing this strong.
I can understand co-signing a loan for someone, where you promise to pay the debt if they don’t.
I can understand taking a short term pledge for someone’s behavior, if you believe that you could control the other person well enough to prevent problems, or you think they won’t do the wrong thing anyway.
I can even understand marriage, where you promise to walk through life together, whatever it brings. If you keep this commitment, then yes, you will be impacted by any big wrongs that your spouse does.
But this goes beyond any of those. It includes all of these commitments and more. This isn’t just being impacted by someone else’s choices, it involves accepting the consequences of their actions and, as Nia said, your lives are joined in life and death.
What do you think of Turalay? Is there someone you would be willing to declare Turalay for if they needed it? Why or why not?
July 4, 2015 at 1:36 pm #2914Miss MaryGuest
Turalay is a scary thing. I might be willing to do it if someone very very close to me truly needed it, but I think then I would drive the person crazy trying to control their every potential action to be sure they didn’t do anything that would have bad consequences for us (which I note that Nia did not do, she was incredibly trusting). I think if I did it, it would take a while to work out the interpersonal mess that I would make with my anxiety over the whole thing. For the vast majority of people I would not want to jump in and do that, because the consequences are so high, and if it is someone I do not know well, or if the punishment they are facing is not extremely severe, the burden of Turalay (and it is a burden for them too) would be worse than what I get them out of.
July 17, 2015 at 1:40 am #3003Miss LindaGuest
I have come to the conclusion that my discomfort with the idea of Turalay is not really as much a matter of trust as I had initially thought. Lack of trust may be part of it, since you can never fully predict another person’s actions, but that isn’t really what I find disturbing.
I think the reason I find it so disturbing is because Turalay is really about love, and my hesitance is showing my lack of it. Nia didn’t invoke turalay because she trusted Kal. She did trust him and believed he would do what was right. But that wasn’t the motivation behind it. Her motivation was his good, his freedom. Self interest and her own protection were not just overshadowed by that, they weren’t present at all. Nia gained nothing for herself in this, and she risked losing everything. In one way, she did lose everything… her life became something that wasn’t really hers anymore. Turalay means that you don’t have any ability to protect yourself, really. Your life is in the hands of someone else. To do that, to allow that, requires a very unearthly form of love.
Nia’s choice wasn’t made because she believed Kal could be trusted. Even when she was about to die, she said “I do not regret it.” How could she have not regretted it, when he had admitted to doing some very wrong things, to being unworthy of the trust she had given him? Maybe he wasn’t as bad as the people of the Green Hollows thought, but he certainly wasn’t innocent either. He didn’t get that fur by accident. But apparently in Nia’s mind, tying her life to his was based on something besides his goodness or trustworthiness or even his sanity. I remember Rudric trying to talk Nia out of it, and she answered simply “He’s my son.” This has to be love, in a more pure form than I am used to seeing or giving. Nothing else I know has that peculiar lack of self interest. And my love isn’t this pure, this self forgetful, toward anyone.
It reminds me of Romans 5:6-11.
I still find Turalay a very uncomfortable idea. It clashes with my ideas of fairness, of responsibility, of “right-ness”. But I can also see that my ideas aren’t correct, and that true righteousness, the way God sees it, is quite different.
September 23, 2015 at 10:41 am #3654ArodethGuest
The more I think about this, the more I realize how close a symbolization it is of what Christ did for us. In a way.
He tied His life to ours. He committed to taking the consequences of OUR mistakes (Romans 3:23 – for the wages of sin is death).
Nia knew that no matter what happened, what the consequences (if, in fact, she ever THOUGHT there would be any) were, it would be worth it. She loved him that much. Jesus knew what the consequences were before He got started. And He knew it was worth it. He loves us that much.
Maybe I’m just being very analytical today, but that’s what I’m seeing here.
September 23, 2015 at 1:02 pm #3663Madame SidlerKeymaster
Yes. That reminds me of one of Andrew’s lyrics, from an old song of his called “Isn’t It Love.”
Isn’t it love to look down from the sky
And see Your only Son on the cross asking “Why?”
And somehow let Him die that way
And not call the whole thing off?
All for this man stuck in Kalamazoo
Who loses his bags and his way sometimes too.
But that was something that You already knew,
And still You died for me.
September 23, 2015 at 6:06 pm #3675Aden LewisGuest
I do not feel super comfortable about the subject either, although it may be because I don’t really know the history of Turalay. Maybe if I knew this history it would make me more comfortable.
September 23, 2015 at 10:32 pm #3678Miss LindaGuest
I do think Turalay is a good picture of what Jesus has done for us. But even that, if I think about it too much, sometimes makes me uncomfortable. Maybe I just need to be uncomfortable.
February 28, 2016 at 3:43 pm #6142Purple SellerGuest
Turalay reminds me of Genesis 15,where God makes a covenant with Abraham. In this time period, many covenants were sealed by a ceremony where both parties walked between pieces of dead animals. This was showing that if the covenant was broken, the punishment was to become like one of these dead animals. God and Abraham seal their covenant with this ceremony, but God puts Abraham in a deep sleep and is the only one to walk between the dead animals. This was God showing that if Abraham broke his part of the covenant, God would bear the consequences in his stead.
This is like turalay in that Nia takes the consequences if Kalmar fails and God takes the consequences if Abraham fails. Also, both were sealed by blood.
April 28, 2019 at 8:38 am #35842Kalmar WingfeatherGuest
When Mama did Turalay for me I was so scared! I was really worried I would get her in trouble too. But if Whether or not I would do Turalay really depends. If it was someone close to me like Janner or Leeli I would say of course! But for someone like umm well um… Sara cobbler? AAAAA JANNER DONT HURT ME AAAAAAAA!
November 15, 2019 at 8:15 pm #41979Throne Warden GEMGuest
Turalay is definitely similar to what Jesus did for us, but I think there are some differences in the analogy.
For example, if Kamar did something wrong, Nia wouldn’t be a substitute for him, she would just share in his punishment. But when Jesus died for us, he was a substitute, and we no longer have to suffer the consequences of our sin.
Jesus was also perfect, and therefore the only one who could redeem us. Since he was perfect and didn’t deserve the punishment for sin, he was able to take on our sin so that God would count us righteous. in the Bible, God refused to let Moses be a substitute for the people of Israel because he was sinful himself. Jesus didn’t have that problem. Turalay is different because Nia was a human being and still sinful.
However, there are definitely many similarities worth noting, such as it being sealed in blood. I think that’s already been discussed some, I’m just throwing stuff out there right now.
- The forum ‘Book 3: The Monster in the Hollows’ is closed to new topics and replies.